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November 12, 2007

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Comments

AJ

Very good. I think this was overdue, but now I can back off from my anti-Shelfari stance a bit. Thanks for the fix.

Deane

No, you're not done -- do NOT check all the boxes by default. The odds of someone wanting to send an invite to everyone is slim to none.

Leave the boxes unchecked, and let the user check on the ones he/she wants to send.

shelfari = spam

Deane's comment seconded.

Michael Buckbee

I'd agree with the other two commenters that "checked by default" is a bad move as it is likely to lead to unintended emailings = spam.

Josh

Thanks for your comments. We do pre-checked boxes, as does Facebook, and most other quickly growing social networking sites.

We will continually monitor our spam complaints and also our numbers. If we find that too many people are making mistakes with the pre-checked boxes, we will consider changes.

dikonstrukt

In the biz, this is called opt-in and opt-out. Opt-in (where you have to check the box) always yields better quality users. No surprise, opt-out (user has to uncheck the box and your current design) yields much less quality (and frequently complaints of spam). While some sites out there still do opt-out, it is no longer the industry standard for marketing initiatives. It has a bit of a bad feel to it. It's your decision, of course, but having worked for internet companies for ten years, I can tell you that you will grow fast but have a largely inactive user base. While a large userbase number looks good on paper, when it gets compared to to ad/book sale revenue, it will be painfully obvious (to investors, for example) that your opt-out strategy has generated a low quality list.

Guybrarian

Thanks much for fixing this, you all. I'll make a fifth vote for the Opt-In model (thanks for your cogent comment, Josh), and agree with Deane that you're really only half there with the format change.

Guybrarian

Correction: thanks for your cogent comment 'Dikonstrukt,' (and as for your previous comment about me being a 'librarything fanboy,' I am familiar with a number of social cataloging sites, and take a strong interest in this area; it pains me to see unfair practices coming to the fore. Expressing my criticism of Shelfari hardly makes me some sort of librarthing agent - unlike the agents under shelfari's employ sent forth to market their site under false pretenses (http://www.librarything.com/thingology/2007/11/shelfari-astroturfing-evidence.php)

Yeh, I'll admit it: I tend to like the guys who play fair, and think there's still room for a little integrity in the book 'biz.' More fool I, I guess.

MockTurtle

Here's another vote for opt-in (boxes NOT pre-checked). This is one of the things I really dislike about Facebook, and would much rather see Shelfari break from the social-networking pack in this regard.

Nancy White

It is good to see the clarification. (I'm still dealing with pissed off and confused friends after sending to 900+ without understanding what I was doing.)

I will chime in that moving to unchecked boxes gives you a higher quality of participant and raises your own street cred.

Even though others are using the default checked box, that does not mean it is a good strategic decision that yields you better results over time. With more and more people using the checked box, suspicion will rise and use will probably decline.

casey

We're really supposed to believe that Shelfari did not know this was an issue? People have been complaining about this for months on the blogs. Shelfari has certainly found the time to astroturf every blog that shows up on a google search of "shelfari", but they didn't know about dozens of complaints? They only made the change after LibraryThing and GoodReads called them out on it, so maybe they really don't read their customers' blogs.

The bottom line is that sending out as many emails as possible *can* be good business -- the CEO of Shelfari says as much in this very thread. Spam exists because some people do respond to it. So what really happened here was that the cost of being labeled a spammer finally outweighed the benefits of Shelfari being a spammer.

Shelfari's traffic started to spike about the same time they started spamming and astroturfing. The suggestion that nobody at Shelfari noticed this (even as they've frequently crowed about their Alexa stats on various blogs, including this one) is ludicrous.

Why did Amazon give a million dollars to: (1) a company that doesn't know about email or privacy best practices; (2) a company that doesn't read its customers' blogs but does read its competitors'; (3) a company founded by a bunch of non-techies who use words like "leverage" and "liase" non-ironically, but can't even competently handle a simple PR problem; (4) a company where an intern spent months illicitly astroturfing without anyone apparently noticing; (5) a company with at least twice as many employees as their nearest competitor, but hasn't made any significant improvements to their bug-riddled site in several months?

DaveA

So, Josh-

Two points:

1) Who is this Dan guy? You should study the Whole Foods debacle: their CEO took tremendous heat for astroturfing, which even had the potential to derail their Wild Oats acquisition.

2) Do the right thing: Opt-in. Saying "FaceBook does it" doesn't excuse bad acting. It's like using MSFT as a model for how to do UI.

tim

don't be greedy... make it opt-in!
agree with josh above.

look at flickr's success... and all without that nasty webmail trick... they fostered that community by make continuous tweaks and improvements and posting comments, showing they care about photography, etc.

i'm trying this site now and so far so good, although the community isn't really there yet... hope i stick with it... book discussion outside an amazon reviews is something that's really needed...


Jay Levitt

@ Josh: We at AOL always "pre-opted" our users into everything too. It was much easier to use that way, our growth was phenomenal, and it didn't hurt our reputation at ALL - and I got to buy some really nice cars. Go for it!

P.S. But I wouldn't wait for the 2009 models to come out.

P.P.S. Are you hiring? A bunch of my friends are looking for work.

Les

I'm the latest victim and am dealing with irritated people/companies asking me to stop sending them invitations and reminders. Does delting your account stop this? I hope so.

Janice Lopez

I cannot get into Shelfari - my virus checker tells me there is a malware program and tells me to disconnect immediately.
Janice
New Mexico
March 24, 2009

Shelfari

@Janice--Thanks for letting us know you're seeing this alert. Avast has recently made changes which are incorrectly marking Shelfari's javascript (.js) as infected. Our javascript is not infected and the site is safe to use. Our developers are working with Avast to correct the false alert being generated by their product. The alert should
disappear soon.

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Cheryl D. Washington

Josi

Thanks much for fixing this, you all. I'll make a fifth vote for the Opt-In model (thanks for your cogent comment, Josh), and agree with Deane that you're really only half there with the format change.

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don"t really post but cannot getting into Shelfari im finding to be difficult- my virus checker continues tell me there is a malware. any advice?

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Gajoob

We're really supposed to believe that Shelfari did not know this was an issue? People have been complaining about this for months on the blogs. Shelfari has certainly found the time to astroturf every blog that shows up on a google search of "shelfari", but they didn't know about dozens of complaints?

 bobby

great info. thnaks

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